Paranormal Yakker with your host Stan Mallow

Click on Don Donderi photo below to view video Interview



Season 1 Episode 1

Don Donderi UFO/Researcher.
HDon Donderi, Ph.D. is a retired McGill University Professor and author of UFOs, ETs and Alien Abductions; a Scientist Looks at the Evidence. In this interview, Stan Mallow, the Paranormal Yakker, conducted with him at Don's Montreal home a wide range of topics relating to the UFO phenomenon, documented alien abduction cases, government cover-ups, and more are discussed. Don also talks about his long friendship with his friend and college buddy, Stanton T Friedman, a retired nuclear physicist and author of Flying Saucers and Science; and a leader in getting various governments to come clean with the evidence they have been keeping secret regarding extraterrestrials visiting our planet. Don Donderi has had a life long interest in UFOs and alien technology, and his knowledge of the UFO phenomenon is vast. Happily, he shares much of it with Stan in this exciting and informative interview.

Transcript of video Interview

Stan Mallow
Hi everyone. This is Stan Mallow. Want to welcome you to the Paranormal Yakker. My incredible guest today, who I am going to be yakking away with is Don Donderi. He's the author of UFOs, ETs, and Alien Abductions: A Scientist Looks at the Evidence. Don, welcome to the Paranormal Yakker.
Don Donderi
Thank you. You're indeed welcome.
Stan Mallow
Thank you. Thank you so much. Now from what I know about you, you've pretty much had a lifelong interest in UFOs, ETs, aliens, et cetera. When did you first get this interest? When did it become that strong? Was it something you saw? Something you heard? Something you read about?
Don Donderi
It was something I read at age 10 in 1947. The first UFO sightings got public attention then in Life Magazine and Look Magazine. And I read about them. And that was interesting. That was when I was 10 years old. I'm a little older now, but I've kept that interest up during my entire life. And since I'm a professional in the field of human visual perception and memory, that is what people see and can remember about what they see, and that's how people report UFOs, it was obviously interesting to me to discover how controversial it was that people could be believed when they said they saw a UFO and then described it. So I took a professional interest in that from about 1965.
Stan Mallow
So you were really got that interest at a very young age.
Don Donderi
I had the interest at a young age. I never followed it, but when I was older and professionally trained, I realized I had something to say about it. That is, not everybody who sees a UFO is crazy or making it up or diluted or self-interested.
Stan Mallow
And that's going to be one of my questions along the way, elaborating on that. But right now, as a being a scientist, which you are, somebody who believes in facts and as a general rule if you see it, it's there, you have to have things proved, how do you go about coming to a conclusion that you feel pretty much 100% that we have been visited and are being visited by aliens? That they've been around?
Don Donderi
Well, my position is that some of what people report as UFOs are extra terrestrial vehicles because you have to collect evidence and the evidence has been being collected for the last 70, 75 years. Individual reports followed up by videos, by radar plots, by photographs, by people's drawings, as they recollect things. And not all of them can be explained away as secret government airplanes or misperceptions or reflections off airplanes or any of the other many ordinary explanations for what actually can be explained away. Often what you see in the sky is something normal that you don't understand. It's a bright star, or it's an airplane or it's something like that. Maybe 80% of the time, that's the explanation, but there's a leftover 20% of the time, roughly, in which there is no reasonable explanation other than that we're seeing a machine we don't know how to make. And that's what it comes down to. You have to be able to say to yourself that this collection of sightings is not human technology, because as far as we know, people can't make these things. It's simple as that. And that's what it boils down to.
Stan Mallow
Hm. Now, probably one of the most well known incidents where people talk about spacecraft landing is one that you had pretty much mentioned before. 1947, that would have to be the Roswell incident. Now it seems as though, even though governments and so many people have tried to cover it up, it's still in the psyche. People still speak about that. Why do you think that is? Why do you think they chose Roswell as a place to land?
Don Donderi
Well, they, whoever they are, [crosstalk].
Stan Mallow
Whoever they are.
Don Donderi
... didn't choose it as a place to land, they crashed there.
Stan Mallow
They crashed there.
Don Donderi
Right. And why they crashed, I don't know. But the weather was bad, there were thunderstorms, and I believe some technical thing went wrong with that machine. I don't know why it was there, except that nearby there were a lot of US atomic installations at the time, this was just post World War II. The one squadron that was organized to deliver the atomic bomb through airplanes was based in Roswell as a matter of fact. And this crash occurred near there. It might've been a reconnaissance mission, but I honestly don't know.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Don Donderi
I have no idea.
Stan Mallow
But it seems of all the incidents all over the world, Roswell is still there and Roswell does not go away.
Don Donderi
It does not go away. It's very controversial. The government of course denied there was anything going on, explained it as a weather balloon, which given the evidence is ridiculous. There have been several books written, very careful books, written on the subject and the conclusion in almost every case is the government picked up a crashed flying saucer, picked up a couple of dead bodies as well, and shipped them off probably to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is a, at the time was the head of what's called the Air Materiel Command. The organization in the Air Force responsible for figuring out new ways to do things and figuring out what other guys stuff was, enemy, possible enemies. So this is where that went. It went to Dayton, Ohio, which is where the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is, and it went there secretly after the crash was picked up and cleaned up. That's what's known. The rest is speculation.
Stan Mallow
Now, hopefully, I'm hoping, as I'm sure you are so many people, in the not too distant future, that the real truth will come out, that everybody thinks is the truth, and probably is. Who do you think will wind up being the whistleblower? The one who's going to do that?
Don Donderi
Well, you probably know that a couple of whistles have already been blown.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Don Donderi
There was a story printed in the New York Times on December 16th last year, written about a man named Luis Elizondo, who was the director of a small project inside the Pentagon called The Advanced Aerial Threat Detection Program, which is government doublespeak for a UFO study program. And he was in charge of it. It had a small budget and it was mainly devoted to collecting data on evidence of crashed UFOs or UFOs seen in the sky or whatever. And he resigned from the government in 2017. And then, with the help of a couple of New York Times reporters, wrote a story that explained what this program did, which was collect evidence about UFOs. And that's the first the government has ever admitted that there was any kind of UFO investigation program. Before that any Pentagon involvement was denied and any involvement in other government agencies was also denied.
Don Donderi
But with Elizondo coming forward, that denial is no longer possible. Three months later in March 2018, the man who was one of his bosses, a guy named Christopher Mellon, also defected, so to speak, resigned and asked in an editorial in the Washington Post, the US is constantly observing UFOs, why aren't we doing anything about it? That's a paraphrase at any rate of the title of his op-ed piece. So two former government officials, both civilians, both resigned from the Pentagon, and both went public with their complaints about the fact the government wasn't doing enough about UFOs. Now that means the whistle has been blown, whether it was blown deliberately by the government, in other words, these guys were given a wink and a nudge and said, "Go tell the people about this," or whether they actually decided to break ranks, I don't know.
Stan Mallow
So it could be-
Don Donderi
That's the situation.
Stan Mallow
... government is preparing us, getting people ready- [crosstalk].
Don Donderi
That's one theory.
Stan Mallow
... for when the truth will come out.
Don Donderi
It's a possibility, yeah. I don't know, but it's a possibility.
Stan Mallow
I don't know either but I just find it so fascinating as you do [crosstalk].
Don Donderi
No, no, it's fascinating, I agree.
Stan Mallow
Now, what do you say, if anything at all, to naysayers? Those people I'm sure you must have come across, who put everything down, say it never happened with UFOs, and they are especially vicious malicious with people who say they were abducted or came into contact with them. How do you handle that? Or don't you, it's not worth your while?
Don Donderi
Well, it's not worth my while, but the answer is, a lot of people are afraid of this subject. First of all, if you're a... And this I go for paragraphs and paragraphs about this and that book, I'm not going to give you paragraphs and paragraphs here. It takes too long. Mainly there are lots of ways of avoiding unpleasant thoughts. And one way is to ridicule the person who's proposing those thoughts. I can't believe this. It can't be true. It may be true, but I don't want to know it, so I'm going to brush off the guy or a girl who says it's true. And there's a whole psychology behind that. It's called cognitive dissonance. I tell you one thing, you don't want to hear it. You don't want to believe it. And you figure out some way to make me the guilty party, the guy who is crazy, or the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Don Donderi
Simply so I, the guy who doesn't want to hear this, don't have to pay attention to it. The psychology of that's pretty well understood. There are many ways to get around paying attention to what you don't want to know. And most of the debunkers don't want to know that stuff. And so they're basically frightened of it, honestly.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Don Donderi
Frightened, yeah.
Stan Mallow
Yeah. I agree with you. Because I know... I've attended many, many UFO conferences since I'm fascinated with the subject and those who I feel the most for are those who come there, who did have a one-on-one experience with it and basically you have a conference is the only place where they could speak to people about it, who will understand them and not ridicule them. Because they've been there with that. And I hope something changes with that down the line.
Don Donderi
No, you're absolutely right. That's a problem. And there aren't many places to go if you've had a close encounter or that kind of experience. Quite right. There's no public... There's no organization other than the UFO organizations willing to listen to you. Quite right.
Stan Mallow
And they're so tortured inside. I mean, my heart goes out to them when I speak with them. And, but one day, one day things are going to change.
Don Donderi
I think so.
Stan Mallow
Now you're a retired professor at McGill University.
Don Donderi
That's right.
Stan Mallow
And I find it fascinating you had a course at one time called UFOs History and Reality. What motivated you to give such a course?
Don Donderi
Well, that of course is ongoing. I'm still giving it.
Stan Mallow
It is ongoing? You're still giving it. [crosstalk 00:11:25] So it's a lot of interest. Okay, I'm glad to hear that.
Don Donderi
It's part of the McGill University School of Continuing Studies and it's not a credit course. It's a course that people can take if they want to, but, and they pay 50 bucks I think for it. And I don't get anything for it. But it's a course open to the public on the subject, sponsored by this McGill, basically, continuing ed program. And I give it once a year. I've been doing it...
Stan Mallow
Oh, I'm glad to hear that. I know you were giving it, but you're still giving it. I think that's great. Okay.
Don Donderi
Next January. I've been giving it for three years in a row during the winter term, which starts in January and I'll be doing it again this coming January.
Stan Mallow
Now, the people who come to the course, does it vary their reasons for [inaudible 00:12:07], just curiosity, have they themselves experienced something they want to learn? Or do you get any kind of a consensus or is it very varied?
Don Donderi
It's varied. First of all, the course in something called the McGill Community for Lifelong Learning, which means it's really adult education for people who have the time and interest to show up. And I teach the course at 9:30 in the morning on Mondays. So you have to be reasonably motivated to get up and go. And it's mostly people my own age, that is people who are retirement age, who have the time and interest to come and see it. And hear me talk. And it goes on for 10 weeks, two hours a week. So there's 20 hours a week of teaching and no exams, which makes it very easy for me to teach because I don't have to grade anybody's papers and they don't have to write any.
Stan Mallow
And you're probably very happy about that.
Don Donderi
And they're probably very happy about it. They've all been through that already, put it that way.
Stan Mallow
Now.
Don Donderi
Go.
Stan Mallow
Okay. So regarding the history part of your course.
Don Donderi
The course, okay.
Stan Mallow
Yeah, I was just curious to know how far back in history does it go? When were like the first sightings, either verbally written pictorial or whatever that there is some talk about people, beings from another place coming here.
Don Donderi
Well, the first reference that modern scholars make to this is biblical. It's Ezekiel who saw a wheel way up in the middle of the sky. Anyway, that goes a long way back and nobody can prove it. Most of the observational evidence comes from the late 19th century and early 20th century. Then it really took off. And that's the right metaphor, I guess with this.
Stan Mallow
Yep, good one.
Don Donderi
In about 1947, because that's when the Kenneth Arnold sighting, which was very widely publicized, a private pilot flying over the Cascade Mountains in Washington State saw, I think, nine silvery disks hopping, skipping, between mountain one mountain and another and reported it. And two weeks later was the Roswell crash. Both of these things in the summer of 1947. That's where the public first became really aware of this phenomenon because it was worldwide. There were intimations of this during the second world war and right after.
Don Donderi
There were the things called foo fighters that came over Germany and France during the aerial bombardment campaigns during the second world war. Nobody knew what they were, they were balls of light. The allies thought they were German, the Germans thought they were allies. So nobody knew. Then there were the so-called ghost rockets that were UFO sightings over Sweden. And the allies, this was after the war, '46, '47, they thought it was the Russians acting up, being mischievous, doing things that they knew how to do. And that didn't turn out to be true. So it began roughly at the end of the second world war and has continued ever since.
Stan Mallow
Okay. Okay, why do you think alien visitors came, visited certain peoples in time and not others? [crosstalk].
Don Donderi
I haven't a clue. I haven't a clue. I haven't a clue.
Stan Mallow
Any reason, no reason? Or why they gave their technology to some people and not to others?
Don Donderi
I don't think they've given their technology to anybody.
Stan Mallow
Okay.
Don Donderi
I have no evidence to suggest that any humans have access to alien technology, none whatsoever.
Stan Mallow
Okay. I find that fascinating because some people do believe that they came to certain cultures, that they were in ancient Egypt, that they were in Mexico, that various places, they were there. So you don't think that had any validity?
Don Donderi
I have no knowledge of that. I know people have written about that. And I can't comment on their scholarship because I'm not scholarly in those areas. I'm really talking about what I know, which is the evidence from roughly 1947 on and in that evidence, I see no indication that extraterrestrial civilizations have favored one country or another. In fact, I don't think they're favoring anybody.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What do you think their reasons is for coming to us? Is there a message for us that they want us to know? Or they will let us know? Is it just curiosity? Or are they telling us we're doing some things wrong with our planet and we better shape up if we want to continue living here?
Don Donderi
I haven't a clue. I really don't know. I'm a kind of guy who's just after the facts. I don't know what the facts mean. That's for us to figure out. But I don't have a clue. I really don't. I'm worried about it, because these creatures have better technology than we do. We can't, at least there's no evidence that we can build anything as good as a UFO. That is something that can fly, hover, leave the atmosphere, come back into the atmosphere, do all of these things and also out-maneuver anything we can produce, whether it's a missile or an airplane. So they're technically better than we are. What their motives are, I don't know. I don't pretend to.
Stan Mallow
We've yet to know.
Don Donderi
We've yet to know. Maybe some people know. I don't, for sure.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Have you have any theories when things will really come to the surface and they're going to be acknowledged by the governments and they're there? How do people do you think are going to be affected by it? Some people say organized religion is going to be upset. Other people say no, it's part of the big picture. Have you given any thought to that part of it or not?
Don Donderi
I've given thought to it, but I also don't know what's going to happen. First of all, it is upsetting. The idea that you have to acknowledge, there is a set of individuals who you don't control and who have technology that you can't master, means that our future is out of our hands. Now the worst you can say about humans, and you can say a lot of bad things about humans, is that we know what we can do to each other. We have atomic bombs or hydrogen bombs. We can blow them up. They can blow us up.
Stan Mallow
Correct.
Don Donderi
In the meantime, in an ordinary society, in a happy one, like this one, we still don't treat each other well all the time, but we have means to deal with that. We have governments, we have police forces, we have laws. All of that we understand. And it means that we more or less manage our own affairs, more or less well, most of the time. And that's leaving a lot of leeway for screwing up, to put it bluntly.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Don Donderi
We don't know what to expect with creatures whose technology is so much better than ours that we can't control it. We know about our own technology and what can go wrong, what we can do to mess it up, or mess ourselves up. We don't know what they can do to mess ourselves up. And so that's worrisome. It's worrisome to me, but I don't have an answer for it. What I think we should do is acknowledge the problem and talk about it, and get our governments to talk about it as well. [crosstalk].
Stan Mallow
That's a good first step, I agree.
Don Donderi
As I say, if they... Look most of the governments of the west, certainly the US, probably Canada, the other major powers, know much more about UFOs than I know, because they have access to much more information than I have. Civilians like me have to listen to what other people say, you get the occasional video clip from somebody who's got a camera or a cell phone out when something happens. The governments have radar stations, they have interceptors, they have giant ballistic missile radars, they know what's going on much more than we do. And for me to say, I don't know what's happening, doesn't mean nobody knows what's happening. I'm just a civilian, not on the inside.
Stan Mallow
Gotcha. Now your book has received excellent, excellent reviews. And one of the people I know that gave you a wonderful, wonderful writeup was Stanton Friedman, who is probably the one who helped open things up in the very beginning, a physicist who did all of this research and going into that. And I know from a personal level, having spoken with Stanton in 1997 at the 50th anniversary in Roswell, and very, very recently, there was a MUFON exposition that I was at where I got to speak with him too. And I just wanted to personally thank you because when people like him, like you, who... scientists, who have degrees, doctors come out, you sort of open yourself up to ridicule from some sectors and people like that. How could you do that? So I think things are going to be great down the future when people like yourself, the academics, the scientists, go and put themselves out on the line and say, "Hey, there's something to this and we should be looking into it."
Don Donderi
Well, thank you. I appreciate the compliment. You might not know that Stanton and I were at the same university at exactly the same time. We're both graduates of the University of Chicago.
Stan Mallow
I did not know that.
Don Donderi
Both in 1955. And we were there at the same time another very well known skeptic was there. A guy named Carl Sagan.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh wow.
Don Donderi
Actually we all three grades senior with different degrees. Sagan, as you know, is an astronomer who was very popular on television. And he was a complete skeptic about this stuff. I knew Sagan casually at Chicago. I did not know Stanton Friedman while he was there, but we all happened to be there at the same time.
Stan Mallow
Huh.
Don Donderi
So that's interesting.
Stan Mallow
Wow. Yeah.
Don Donderi
And then I've met Stanton since. We know each other pretty well.
Stan Mallow
Yeah, it was just a few weeks ago, the Alien Cosmic Expo over there, that I got to speak with him on that too. So, all of you... you kept up in time over there. Have you spoken to other scientists and other academics who are [inaudible 00:22:11] to come out or they'd prefer not to come out about it, even though they know it?
Don Donderi
Most of the ones I know, I know through MUFON, Mutual UFO Network, which is an organization I belong to. There are very few others who express an interest. It's really not a topic that academics take seriously. The average university professor, whatever his or her profession, won't have anything to do with the subject. They won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Stan Mallow
And that's so sad when you think there are other subjects, theories, this, that, they have no problem exploring it or at least investigating it. But when it comes to this, there seems to be that taboo or that wall or whatever you want to call it. I can't figure it out.
Don Donderi
It's fear partly, really.
Stan Mallow
Okay.
Don Donderi
And partly, there's no science that can explain it. And that's the [inaudible 00:22:59] right out of left field. That's maybe a mixed metaphor. Again, there's a famous philosopher of science named Thomas Kuhn who wrote a book in 1962 called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. And what he did was explained how modern science is organized. And by modern science, I mean the kind that supports university professors. When I want to do research on visual perception, I have to write a grant application. And then I send it off to the government. And the government gets six of my peers, my equals in other universities to read it. And they have to decide whether it's worth supporting or not. So I have to influence people who I know and who are in the same area to persuade them that what I want to do is worthwhile. Will they take a risk on something as weird as UFOs when our real interest is the relationship between perceptual learning and visual discrimination, some weird topic like that?
Don Donderi
No, it's because there's no theory to explain it. I can't explain to you, and neither can almost any academic scientist, how a UFO works or why there's evidence that UFO extraterrestrials can communicate telepathically with people. That's beyond the pale. It just doesn't fit into modern science. And so nobody's going to support it. And you're frightened if you think about it and you think about having to persuade the Dean that what you're doing is worthwhile. I never had that fear because I had tenure for one thing. And I also am outside of the university engaged in commercial activity that provides me a second means of support. And besides my university was reasonably tolerant about that. I never made a secret of it, but it doesn't advance your career. Put it that way.
Stan Mallow
Okay. You're being very diplomatic about it. But yes, I understand that totally. Now we know and it's accepted that a lot of people in government try to disprove things like with the Roswell incident you were talking about where the attribute to weather balloons and all types of things going in with that on it. Now, what about the part of the media who doesn't necessarily report things the way they are, or to try to make fun of it? The only thing that's in my mind right now are related to was the Roswell in 1997. Now [inaudible] we had like tens of thousands of people from all over the world, laying on Roswell, talking about it. It was absolutely fascinating. And you had a major network go over there. There was maybe 10, 12 people dressed up like they were going to Star Trek convention. They took photos of them.
Stan Mallow
And I said to Ray, who I was with, my partner over there, that it's going to be all over the place. Once this major network went and did that every... Next news day, all the newspapers, TV shows, you would think, oh, it's all a big joke, et cetera. Not one word about the tens of thousands of people that were there. How do you deal with that? Or you don't deal with that?
Don Donderi
Well, it's the same ridicule factor. And again, I don't want to be a scholar about that, but there are two guys named Alexander Wendt and Raymond Duvall who wrote an article about that. And I cite that in my book. They pointed out that the people most frightened about UFOs are the people who are in charge because they can't do anything about it. So the media, who are sort of in part of our establishment, as is the government, and other civil society institutions, are worried about this because they don't know how to deal with it. And so what's the easiest way to not worry? Make fun of it. It's again, the same principle. A good excuse for not paying attention to something is to think it's a joke. And if you can convince yourself it's all a joke, then you can stop worrying about it. And that's a well-known psychological defense mechanism, which the media employ as well as individuals.
Don Donderi
But it's changing. I told you that there were these news stories, one in December 2017 and one in March 2018. First in the New York Times, second in the Washington Post on taking the UFO problem seriously. So I think that's changing. It's changing either because it's been agreed to by the government that the media can tell the story, or it's just happening because you can't keep these kinds of things secret forever.
Stan Mallow
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And something else I think you would have loved at that conference, the 50th anniversary in 1997 there, where you had like the children of the people who were there at the time, like you're talking about the bodies, et cetera. We were speaking with some people over there who their parents own local funeral homes. And they asked for all these little caskets, small sized caskets. What were they for? What was going on over there? Yet, I did not read one word in the major media about these people. What they were saying, anything. It was just the people dressed like Star Trek, which... But you probably got it.
Don Donderi
Well, I think so. That's not new, obviously. Much of the time, UFO news is really cooled in the main media. That stopped happening completely in December of last year and in March of this year. What will happen next, I can't predict. But the days of complete ridicule are over. Because the other media... Other media are taking it seriously now [crosstalk].
Stan Mallow
People are thinking for themselves. I agree with you.
Don Donderi
And people on this kind of media or television or newspaper stories are getting a little more, what you might call, air time or the space to talk about what they think.
Stan Mallow
And again, that, I believe, is thanks to people like yourself. We used to believe a picture's worth a thousand words. Well, what's the picture of a dozen kids dressed up like Star Trek or tens of thousands of people in suits and ties who were not. So a picture is not necessarily worth a thousand words. It's what you choose to capture.
Don Donderi
Correct. And who makes those decisions are the people who run the major media. And as I said, that seems to be changing. How far it will change, I don't know. And you're helping. This is a discussion that will be available to people who watch your show and here we are. We're taking it seriously.
Stan Mallow
Absolutely. Because I know everybody in the audience of the Paranormal Yakker are going to enjoy this. And there's no doubt in my mind that we'd like to get your book, UFOs, ETs, and Alien Abductions: A Scientist Looks at the Evidence. Now, should anybody want it, and I'm sure a lot of people would, how do they go about ordering it?
Don Donderi
Amazon. $9.95.
Stan Mallow
Wow.
Don Donderi
At least that's the last price I looked at, yeah.
Stan Mallow
Really?
Don Donderi
Yeah, yeah. Just go on Amazon. You can buy a copy right online.
Stan Mallow
Of course, I think it's fascinating... There are many, many, many books on this subject, and I think they're all great the more people that write books, it's great. But when academics such as yourself write it, there should be more credibility to it from the public and saying, "Hey, that man has all these credentials and he's writing about it. Maybe there's something to it." And then that will have more people look into it and say, "Hey, I'm going to believe what I believe in me. What makes sense. Not what somebody else is telling me not to believe."
Don Donderi
Well, I think you're right. And I hope that's true. I hope that's true.
Stan Mallow
Great. All I got to say Don is it's been an absolute pleasure interviewing you. I could ask you a hundred other questions but maybe that will be for another time. But I wish you luck with what you're doing. The best of luck to you.
Don Donderi
Thank you very much. I appreciate the interview.
Stan Mallow
Thank you
Don Donderi
Thanks.